1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:10,890 hey 2 00:00:38,470 --> 00:00:24,480 [Music] 3 00:00:43,430 --> 00:00:41,590 last off on another episode of hero 4 00:00:45,750 --> 00:00:43,440 paranormal podcast 5 00:00:49,190 --> 00:00:45,760 broadcasting from the base at la madre 6 00:00:51,830 --> 00:00:49,200 mountain just south of area 51 my name 7 00:00:54,790 --> 00:00:51,840 is ryan the original 8 00:00:57,029 --> 00:00:54,800 overseer of the airwaves bringing you an 9 00:00:59,590 --> 00:00:57,039 epic episode today 10 00:01:00,470 --> 00:00:59,600 today on the podcast we have charles 11 00:01:04,549 --> 00:01:00,480 lear 12 00:01:07,109 --> 00:01:04,559 get ready 13 00:01:10,390 --> 00:01:07,119 he has a new book called the flying 14 00:01:13,270 --> 00:01:10,400 saucer investigators the flying saucer 15 00:01:15,830 --> 00:01:13,280 investigators is a book of history it's 16 00:01:17,990 --> 00:01:15,840 about the people involved in the mystery 17 00:01:20,230 --> 00:01:18,000 of the flying saucers 18 00:01:21,510 --> 00:01:20,240 mostly the investigators but also the 19 00:01:23,990 --> 00:01:21,520 witnesses 20 00:01:25,670 --> 00:01:24,000 some of whom were profoundly affected 21 00:01:28,710 --> 00:01:25,680 the period covered is what has been 22 00:01:32,149 --> 00:01:28,720 called the golden age of flying sausage 23 00:01:33,830 --> 00:01:32,159 which begins in 1947 of course 24 00:01:36,710 --> 00:01:33,840 after the sighting that year by 25 00:01:39,030 --> 00:01:36,720 businessman pilot kenneth arnold and 26 00:01:40,870 --> 00:01:39,040 ends in 1969 27 00:01:42,789 --> 00:01:40,880 with the termination of the u.s air 28 00:01:45,270 --> 00:01:42,799 force's investigation 29 00:01:47,670 --> 00:01:45,280 which existed for most of its duration 30 00:01:49,910 --> 00:01:47,680 known as project blue book the 31 00:01:51,429 --> 00:01:49,920 investigators ranged from kids with 32 00:01:53,670 --> 00:01:51,439 saucer clubs 33 00:01:55,429 --> 00:01:53,680 to serious-minded individuals with 34 00:01:57,590 --> 00:01:55,439 connections in government 35 00:01:59,910 --> 00:01:57,600 there were military personnel assigned 36 00:02:01,030 --> 00:01:59,920 to take flying saucer reports and follow 37 00:02:03,190 --> 00:02:01,040 up on them 38 00:02:05,270 --> 00:02:03,200 and the u.s congress was moved to hear 39 00:02:08,309 --> 00:02:05,280 arguments for a federally funded study 40 00:02:10,790 --> 00:02:08,319 of flying saucers on two occasions the 41 00:02:13,350 --> 00:02:10,800 history of this golden age 42 00:02:15,910 --> 00:02:13,360 is presented using newsletters magazines 43 00:02:17,910 --> 00:02:15,920 case files official documents newspaper 44 00:02:20,390 --> 00:02:17,920 articles film footage and archived 45 00:02:22,630 --> 00:02:20,400 recordings from television and radio 46 00:02:24,550 --> 00:02:22,640 some of the cases the investigators 47 00:02:26,470 --> 00:02:24,560 looked into are presented using nothing 48 00:02:28,550 --> 00:02:26,480 but the facts 49 00:02:32,309 --> 00:02:28,560 as they were recorded without 50 00:02:34,150 --> 00:02:32,319 speculation or sensationalism and even 51 00:02:36,790 --> 00:02:34,160 the die-hard skeptic may be left 52 00:02:38,470 --> 00:02:36,800 wondering by many of them 53 00:02:40,390 --> 00:02:38,480 charles lear welcome to the hero 54 00:02:41,990 --> 00:02:40,400 paranormal podcast 55 00:02:42,869 --> 00:02:42,000 oh thank you ryan it's pleasure to be 56 00:02:45,270 --> 00:02:42,879 here 57 00:02:46,790 --> 00:02:45,280 um we've had quite the quandary trying 58 00:02:49,110 --> 00:02:46,800 to connect i've wanted to talk to you 59 00:02:51,750 --> 00:02:49,120 for quite some time about your new book 60 00:02:54,309 --> 00:02:51,760 the flying saucer investigators 61 00:02:57,110 --> 00:02:54,319 and um without going into detail you've 62 00:02:58,790 --> 00:02:57,120 been super super easy to deal with 63 00:03:00,309 --> 00:02:58,800 because it's just been one nightmare 64 00:03:02,470 --> 00:03:00,319 after the other trying to connect but 65 00:03:05,750 --> 00:03:02,480 we're finally connected so this is a 66 00:03:08,390 --> 00:03:05,760 good thing um what took you down this 67 00:03:10,550 --> 00:03:08,400 path to write this book and to set it in 68 00:03:12,790 --> 00:03:10,560 the golden age of flying saucers as you 69 00:03:16,470 --> 00:03:12,800 mentioned in the book 70 00:03:18,630 --> 00:03:16,480 um okay well i've been writing a 71 00:03:21,910 --> 00:03:18,640 blog for martin willis of her podcast 72 00:03:24,949 --> 00:03:21,920 ufo for about four years 73 00:03:27,030 --> 00:03:24,959 and uh martin uh suggested uh he says 74 00:03:28,710 --> 00:03:27,040 you know i i do it once a week it's 75 00:03:30,869 --> 00:03:28,720 that's a lot of material and martin 76 00:03:31,670 --> 00:03:30,879 suggested i put it to put together a 77 00:03:33,509 --> 00:03:31,680 book 78 00:03:34,550 --> 00:03:33,519 maybe a compilation of the blogs or 79 00:03:37,990 --> 00:03:34,560 something 80 00:03:40,470 --> 00:03:38,000 and i actually got it in my idea to 81 00:03:43,270 --> 00:03:40,480 um along the way i 82 00:03:45,589 --> 00:03:43,280 been exploring the actual flying saucer 83 00:03:48,390 --> 00:03:45,599 investigators and my 84 00:03:49,910 --> 00:03:48,400 uh favorite period is really the the 50s 85 00:03:51,750 --> 00:03:49,920 and the 60s 86 00:03:52,350 --> 00:03:51,760 um 87 00:03:53,750 --> 00:03:52,360 and 88 00:03:55,750 --> 00:03:53,760 [Music] 89 00:03:57,670 --> 00:03:55,760 another thing that uh 90 00:03:59,830 --> 00:03:57,680 really got me interested in uh certain 91 00:04:01,589 --> 00:03:59,840 characters was john keel's book uh the 92 00:04:03,990 --> 00:04:01,599 mothman prophecies 93 00:04:05,910 --> 00:04:04,000 uh he talks about these guys that 94 00:04:09,350 --> 00:04:05,920 sounded really interesting like gray 95 00:04:11,990 --> 00:04:09,360 barker jim mosley ivan t sanderson 96 00:04:15,509 --> 00:04:12,000 and uh you know when i remember reading 97 00:04:17,189 --> 00:04:15,519 them here the book years back i wonder 98 00:04:20,229 --> 00:04:17,199 who these guys are they sound really 99 00:04:23,030 --> 00:04:20,239 interesting especially gray barker and 100 00:04:26,150 --> 00:04:23,040 jim mosley who seem to have a lot of fun 101 00:04:30,469 --> 00:04:26,160 at john keele's expense 102 00:04:32,230 --> 00:04:30,479 and so i i got the idea to uh write 103 00:04:35,150 --> 00:04:32,240 about the investigators and it occurred 104 00:04:36,790 --> 00:04:35,160 to me a perfect period would be 1947 and 105 00:04:39,430 --> 00:04:36,800 1969 106 00:04:42,230 --> 00:04:39,440 uh which is pretty much uh kenneth yeah 107 00:04:45,110 --> 00:04:42,240 which is kenneth arnold's first sighting 108 00:04:47,270 --> 00:04:45,120 on june 24th 1947 up until the uh 109 00:04:48,070 --> 00:04:47,280 termination of project blue book 110 00:04:53,270 --> 00:04:48,080 uh 111 00:04:55,030 --> 00:04:53,280 december 17 1969 112 00:04:57,030 --> 00:04:55,040 uh so 113 00:05:00,230 --> 00:04:57,040 he uh 114 00:05:02,870 --> 00:05:00,240 martin had um 115 00:05:07,350 --> 00:05:05,830 calvin parker uh one of the the the 116 00:05:08,950 --> 00:05:07,360 other guy 117 00:05:10,950 --> 00:05:08,960 one of the guys from the pascagoula 118 00:05:13,270 --> 00:05:10,960 mississippi incident 119 00:05:14,950 --> 00:05:13,280 um 120 00:05:19,670 --> 00:05:14,960 had uh 121 00:05:21,909 --> 00:05:19,680 written an article about pascagoula 122 00:05:23,749 --> 00:05:21,919 incident and this guy wrote him hey that 123 00:05:26,629 --> 00:05:23,759 was a really good article thank you very 124 00:05:28,070 --> 00:05:26,639 much calvin and martin says is this 125 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:28,080 calvin parker 126 00:05:34,950 --> 00:05:31,520 and he said well yes sir it is so martin 127 00:05:37,110 --> 00:05:34,960 got in touch with calvin parker and then 128 00:05:38,710 --> 00:05:37,120 he got calvin parker in touch with 129 00:05:40,070 --> 00:05:38,720 philip mantle 130 00:05:42,550 --> 00:05:40,080 and 131 00:05:46,230 --> 00:05:44,790 calvin was convinced to write a book 132 00:05:48,629 --> 00:05:46,240 and uh 133 00:05:52,150 --> 00:05:48,639 this story is interesting enough calvin 134 00:05:54,070 --> 00:05:52,160 said okay um here's the deal uh i'm 135 00:05:56,150 --> 00:05:54,080 sorry philip mantle has a publishing 136 00:05:57,510 --> 00:05:56,160 company called flying disc press 137 00:05:59,510 --> 00:05:57,520 so 138 00:06:02,070 --> 00:05:59,520 um 139 00:06:03,590 --> 00:06:02,080 calvin said okay i'll let you uh i'll 140 00:06:05,029 --> 00:06:03,600 write the book and let you publish it 141 00:06:07,670 --> 00:06:05,039 but here's the rule you're not allowed 142 00:06:10,150 --> 00:06:07,680 to edit a single word of it and philip 143 00:06:12,950 --> 00:06:10,160 agreed to it and calvin locked himself 144 00:06:14,550 --> 00:06:12,960 in a room for two weeks and banged out 145 00:06:16,550 --> 00:06:14,560 this huge book 146 00:06:17,830 --> 00:06:16,560 and the book did really well 147 00:06:19,350 --> 00:06:17,840 so 148 00:06:21,270 --> 00:06:19,360 um 149 00:06:23,510 --> 00:06:21,280 philip mantle uh 150 00:06:26,469 --> 00:06:23,520 was very grateful to martin for hooking 151 00:06:29,430 --> 00:06:26,479 him up and so martin introduced 152 00:06:31,670 --> 00:06:29,440 me to philip mantle i pitched the idea 153 00:06:34,230 --> 00:06:31,680 of writing this book to philip and 154 00:06:35,670 --> 00:06:34,240 philip went for it so i was off to the 155 00:06:38,309 --> 00:06:35,680 races 156 00:06:41,670 --> 00:06:38,319 that is so neat and i i love calvin 157 00:06:43,590 --> 00:06:41,680 parker he is a past guest and talk about 158 00:06:46,230 --> 00:06:43,600 a guy that 159 00:06:49,270 --> 00:06:46,240 it's impossible not to believe him it is 160 00:06:51,270 --> 00:06:49,280 one of those cases that i talk to a lot 161 00:06:52,629 --> 00:06:51,280 of people and i don't know if i'm the 162 00:06:55,029 --> 00:06:52,639 perfect 163 00:06:56,870 --> 00:06:55,039 example of somebody who can tell when 164 00:06:58,790 --> 00:06:56,880 somebody's kind of spinning a yarn but 165 00:06:59,589 --> 00:06:58,800 calvin is so 166 00:07:02,550 --> 00:06:59,599 just 167 00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:02,560 so real and his experiences are so real 168 00:07:05,510 --> 00:07:03,360 and 169 00:07:08,550 --> 00:07:05,520 there was a lot going on back then it 170 00:07:11,589 --> 00:07:08,560 really is the golden age or golden era 171 00:07:13,790 --> 00:07:11,599 of of flying saucers and you mentioned 172 00:07:16,629 --> 00:07:13,800 that this all starts in uh 173 00:07:18,950 --> 00:07:16,639 1947 with kenneth arnold who reported 174 00:07:20,870 --> 00:07:18,960 seeing i believe nine objects 175 00:07:23,990 --> 00:07:20,880 moving at high speeds over 176 00:07:24,870 --> 00:07:24,000 washington's mount rainier 177 00:07:28,390 --> 00:07:24,880 now 178 00:07:30,870 --> 00:07:28,400 when this was widely publicized 179 00:07:33,430 --> 00:07:30,880 how did how did people take it was this 180 00:07:35,589 --> 00:07:33,440 was this kind of far-fetched for people 181 00:07:38,629 --> 00:07:35,599 the variety that uh that you're average 182 00:07:44,950 --> 00:07:40,790 uh but uh i'm sorry kenneth arnold's 183 00:07:47,909 --> 00:07:44,960 siding yeah the mount rainier um it 184 00:07:49,510 --> 00:07:47,919 initially it was you know thought that 185 00:07:52,230 --> 00:07:49,520 maybe he saw 186 00:07:54,309 --> 00:07:52,240 something military nobody had any idea 187 00:07:56,710 --> 00:07:54,319 he thought it might have been military 188 00:07:59,110 --> 00:07:56,720 so the the idea that this was anything 189 00:08:02,150 --> 00:07:59,120 you know strange or unusual or something 190 00:08:03,909 --> 00:08:02,160 from outer space really it didn't come 191 00:08:06,790 --> 00:08:03,919 up until a little later and was just 192 00:08:10,469 --> 00:08:08,790 kind of an afterthought and then you 193 00:08:12,469 --> 00:08:10,479 know it wasn't 194 00:08:14,469 --> 00:08:12,479 eventually uh 195 00:08:15,830 --> 00:08:14,479 arnold uh complained that people were 196 00:08:18,390 --> 00:08:15,840 coming up to him aren't you the guy 197 00:08:20,070 --> 00:08:18,400 who's saw the uh the men from space the 198 00:08:22,950 --> 00:08:20,080 men from mars and 199 00:08:24,710 --> 00:08:22,960 so but initially you know it he just saw 200 00:08:26,869 --> 00:08:24,720 something strange 201 00:08:30,950 --> 00:08:26,879 uh but you know once 202 00:08:33,990 --> 00:08:31,830 this 203 00:08:35,909 --> 00:08:34,000 it was also the perfect time of year 204 00:08:37,190 --> 00:08:35,919 it's summer is always slow for the 205 00:08:40,230 --> 00:08:37,200 newspapers 206 00:08:43,350 --> 00:08:40,240 so they call it the silly season so 207 00:08:44,550 --> 00:08:43,360 flying salsa reports are good filler 208 00:08:45,829 --> 00:08:44,560 um 209 00:08:47,750 --> 00:08:45,839 so they'll 210 00:08:51,190 --> 00:08:47,760 they they printed just about everything 211 00:08:53,990 --> 00:08:51,200 i mean you know a guy found a uh a guy a 212 00:08:54,870 --> 00:08:54,000 priest came forward with a saw blade and 213 00:08:56,790 --> 00:08:54,880 said 214 00:08:58,470 --> 00:08:56,800 that this thing flew through the air and 215 00:09:00,710 --> 00:08:58,480 hit his chapel it was it was like an 216 00:09:02,870 --> 00:09:00,720 obvious saw blade and yet 217 00:09:05,110 --> 00:09:02,880 this made the paper and they called 218 00:09:06,470 --> 00:09:05,120 everything discs even if you had a 219 00:09:09,430 --> 00:09:06,480 six-pointed 220 00:09:11,190 --> 00:09:09,440 radar target um covered in aluminum foil 221 00:09:14,870 --> 00:09:11,200 they still called it a disc 222 00:09:17,829 --> 00:09:14,880 uh so you know the newspapers was just 223 00:09:20,389 --> 00:09:17,839 filled with flying disc stories and uh 224 00:09:22,550 --> 00:09:20,399 that summer it was saucer mania 225 00:09:24,710 --> 00:09:22,560 and it just kind of got embedded into 226 00:09:26,230 --> 00:09:24,720 the public's consciousness and never 227 00:09:28,790 --> 00:09:26,240 left 228 00:09:30,790 --> 00:09:28,800 and you know this is so reminiscent if 229 00:09:33,190 --> 00:09:30,800 you don't know your history you're 230 00:09:36,790 --> 00:09:33,200 destined to repeat it and it does seem 231 00:09:38,230 --> 00:09:36,800 as if this is so reminiscent of atip and 232 00:09:41,269 --> 00:09:38,240 asap and 233 00:09:42,550 --> 00:09:41,279 you know how the tic tac is now in the 234 00:09:46,150 --> 00:09:42,560 media 235 00:09:48,790 --> 00:09:46,160 and it seems that when you report seeing 236 00:09:51,750 --> 00:09:48,800 nine objects glowing bright blue flying 237 00:09:54,230 --> 00:09:51,760 in a v formation of speeds i think up to 238 00:09:56,550 --> 00:09:54,240 1700 miles an hour 239 00:09:58,630 --> 00:09:56,560 arnold said 240 00:10:01,269 --> 00:09:58,640 there's some interest from the military 241 00:10:04,710 --> 00:10:01,279 and it's it's strange that that's what 242 00:10:06,310 --> 00:10:04,720 it takes to uh get serious development 243 00:10:09,110 --> 00:10:06,320 of 244 00:10:10,949 --> 00:10:09,120 trained eyes on this and and start 245 00:10:13,530 --> 00:10:10,959 historically 246 00:10:14,630 --> 00:10:13,540 you know writing things down 247 00:10:15,590 --> 00:10:14,640 [Music] 248 00:10:17,670 --> 00:10:15,600 of 249 00:10:19,990 --> 00:10:17,680 you know it's just not taken seriously 250 00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:20,000 by the us government it seems unless you 251 00:10:23,829 --> 00:10:22,720 have an instance like this one 252 00:10:25,509 --> 00:10:23,839 yeah 253 00:10:28,470 --> 00:10:25,519 i personally don't care whether the 254 00:10:30,470 --> 00:10:28,480 government takes it seriously or not i 255 00:10:33,269 --> 00:10:30,480 hung out in 256 00:10:35,829 --> 00:10:33,279 fringe uh societies my whole life i'm an 257 00:10:38,230 --> 00:10:35,839 old punk rocker etc so respectability 258 00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:38,240 has never been an issue with me 259 00:10:41,670 --> 00:10:39,600 um 260 00:10:42,870 --> 00:10:41,680 yeah but in terms of the history i think 261 00:10:44,829 --> 00:10:42,880 one of this 262 00:10:47,509 --> 00:10:44,839 you still have mufon 263 00:10:49,430 --> 00:10:47,519 uh and you still have individual like 264 00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:49,440 people like um 265 00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:51,360 uh 266 00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:52,720 stan gordon 267 00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:54,800 um you know you still have researchers 268 00:10:59,750 --> 00:10:56,399 who are collecting reports and keeping 269 00:11:01,750 --> 00:10:59,760 archives and maintaining a history 270 00:11:04,069 --> 00:11:01,760 i think that's really important but 271 00:11:05,990 --> 00:11:04,079 those groups are getting uh fewer and 272 00:11:08,230 --> 00:11:06,000 fewer i mean stan gordon's really 273 00:11:09,829 --> 00:11:08,240 getting up there and a lot of the older 274 00:11:12,550 --> 00:11:09,839 investigators who actually keep these 275 00:11:14,949 --> 00:11:12,560 archives are getting up there 276 00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:14,959 uh so you know that hopefully there are 277 00:11:17,829 --> 00:11:16,720 young investigators still maintaining 278 00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:17,839 archives 279 00:11:22,870 --> 00:11:20,560 uh i've i've found personally like the 280 00:11:24,870 --> 00:11:22,880 uh the i've seen that 281 00:11:27,750 --> 00:11:24,880 uh martin also introduced me to david 282 00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:27,760 marlar so david marlar has extensive 283 00:11:32,389 --> 00:11:30,560 archives in new mexico i lived in new 284 00:11:34,710 --> 00:11:32,399 mexico for a year and a half 285 00:11:37,829 --> 00:11:34,720 uh recently for 286 00:11:39,430 --> 00:11:37,839 obvious reasons i left queens march 2020 287 00:11:40,829 --> 00:11:39,440 so you can guess why 288 00:11:42,870 --> 00:11:40,839 um 289 00:11:44,949 --> 00:11:42,880 and uh 290 00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:44,959 i was just there i hung out with him for 291 00:11:49,269 --> 00:11:46,240 three hours 292 00:11:51,509 --> 00:11:49,279 and like the blue book files like yeah 293 00:11:54,069 --> 00:11:51,519 okay you know you get a card you get 294 00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:54,079 some newspaper clippings but the he's 295 00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:56,240 also got the center for ufo studies 296 00:12:00,629 --> 00:11:59,120 files he and the nycap files national 297 00:12:01,990 --> 00:12:00,639 investigations committee on aerial 298 00:12:05,350 --> 00:12:02,000 phenomena 299 00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:05,360 um and a lot of files from other 300 00:12:08,310 --> 00:12:06,880 investigators who 301 00:12:11,430 --> 00:12:08,320 donated to him 302 00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:11,440 uh and for him to curate 303 00:12:16,550 --> 00:12:13,440 and those files are so much more 304 00:12:18,710 --> 00:12:16,560 interesting uh they're in-depth uh 305 00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:18,720 transcriptions of witness interviews 306 00:12:22,949 --> 00:12:20,480 i've seen some like packed full of 307 00:12:24,710 --> 00:12:22,959 police reports 308 00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:24,720 and the newspaper clippings from the 309 00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:26,320 period i mean they're extensive and 310 00:12:31,350 --> 00:12:28,399 detailed so i found the private 311 00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:31,360 investigators uh in terms of documenting 312 00:12:35,430 --> 00:12:33,200 the history have done a far better job 313 00:12:37,829 --> 00:12:35,440 than the the government has 314 00:12:39,750 --> 00:12:37,839 i you know i could not agree more i 315 00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:39,760 think you're you're completely right 316 00:12:45,509 --> 00:12:42,800 about that the government seems to hide 317 00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:45,519 these things away and then they're lost 318 00:12:48,470 --> 00:12:47,760 to time so to speak in a lot of cases 319 00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:48,480 and 320 00:12:51,269 --> 00:12:49,600 i think david 321 00:12:53,990 --> 00:12:51,279 they don't have a consistent protocol 322 00:12:56,629 --> 00:12:54,000 either i mean the recent hero hearing 323 00:12:59,750 --> 00:12:56,639 scott bray was repeatedly saying uh 324 00:13:01,990 --> 00:12:59,760 we're destigmatizing reporting and uh 325 00:13:03,430 --> 00:13:02,000 coming up with a protocol to report so 326 00:13:06,389 --> 00:13:03,440 if it's stigmatized and you have no 327 00:13:08,790 --> 00:13:06,399 protocol how are you getting the reports 328 00:13:10,949 --> 00:13:08,800 yeah and i think david marlar is an 329 00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:10,959 excellent example i loved his uh book 330 00:13:15,750 --> 00:13:13,200 triangular ufos i thought that was 331 00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:15,760 really well done 332 00:13:20,389 --> 00:13:18,560 and now in your opinion this is 333 00:13:22,790 --> 00:13:20,399 something that i think a lot of people 334 00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:22,800 wonder about what is the best way to 335 00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:25,279 archive this material because 336 00:13:47,350 --> 00:13:33,030 i 337 00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:47,360 um and 338 00:13:51,670 --> 00:13:49,519 put a whole bunch of things under what i 339 00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:51,680 call the according to umbrella 340 00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:53,440 uh so i 341 00:13:58,389 --> 00:13:56,000 very very very little speculation on my 342 00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:58,399 part or and uh 343 00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:00,720 i try to present just the facts so i did 344 00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:02,880 extensive footnoting as close to the 345 00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:05,120 original sources as possible but part of 346 00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:09,990 uh 347 00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:11,760 part of the 348 00:14:15,910 --> 00:14:13,600 reason i did that 349 00:14:17,829 --> 00:14:15,920 is to give the reader a chance to go 350 00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:17,839 find this stuff for themselves and there 351 00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:20,880 are archives all over the web 352 00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:22,000 you've got 353 00:14:27,590 --> 00:14:24,000 the archives for the unexplained in 354 00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:27,600 sweden which has a huge physical archive 355 00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:29,600 but they have a lot of 356 00:14:34,710 --> 00:14:32,880 good stuff online as well 357 00:14:35,829 --> 00:14:34,720 and 358 00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:35,839 there's 359 00:14:40,310 --> 00:14:37,120 no you 360 00:14:42,150 --> 00:14:40,320 and northern ontario ufo research 361 00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:42,160 society 362 00:14:46,230 --> 00:14:43,680 i think that's one gentleman i forget 363 00:14:48,150 --> 00:14:46,240 his name but he he's got a lot of really 364 00:14:49,910 --> 00:14:48,160 good old stuff original magazine 365 00:14:52,030 --> 00:14:49,920 articles and 366 00:14:55,210 --> 00:14:52,040 uh they're all over the place there's 367 00:14:57,189 --> 00:14:55,220 archives.org you can find wendy connors 368 00:15:00,069 --> 00:14:57,199 [Music] 369 00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:00,079 uh ufo audio uh 370 00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:02,160 uh she made an extensive collection of 371 00:15:04,870 --> 00:15:03,040 uh 372 00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:04,880 audio 373 00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:10,720 um you can find uh woodrow derenberger's 374 00:15:18,150 --> 00:15:15,990 interview the the day after he had his 375 00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:18,160 encounter with indrid cole 376 00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:21,040 cold on youtube and it's all over the 377 00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:22,000 place 378 00:15:26,949 --> 00:15:23,440 so uh 379 00:15:28,629 --> 00:15:26,959 you know i physical archives are an 380 00:15:31,269 --> 00:15:28,639 absolute pleasure 381 00:15:32,790 --> 00:15:31,279 um but the people who have the physical 382 00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:32,800 archives are 383 00:15:37,269 --> 00:15:34,720 more and more moving to make them 384 00:15:38,949 --> 00:15:37,279 digital and accessible 385 00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:38,959 from an armchair 386 00:15:42,230 --> 00:15:40,560 but 387 00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:42,240 to get back to your question i'm sorry i 388 00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:44,000 took the wrong way around 389 00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:46,240 um you know 390 00:15:51,509 --> 00:15:48,480 having uh 391 00:15:53,829 --> 00:15:51,519 having a group or an individual 392 00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:53,839 a group is better with a network 393 00:15:57,430 --> 00:15:55,440 that they can send to a centralized 394 00:15:59,509 --> 00:15:57,440 location and i had people at that 395 00:16:00,470 --> 00:15:59,519 centralized location 396 00:16:03,749 --> 00:16:00,480 you know 397 00:16:06,470 --> 00:16:03,759 put all this stuff in a file in a filing 398 00:16:08,949 --> 00:16:06,480 cabinet i you know i i think is the best 399 00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:08,959 way ultimately 400 00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:10,720 i think you're right i think physical 401 00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:12,800 not only is it more 402 00:16:19,269 --> 00:16:16,800 accurate and you know drawings etc a lot 403 00:16:22,629 --> 00:16:19,279 of people have 404 00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:22,639 quote unquote lost information through 405 00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:25,360 digital means and i find that 406 00:16:28,710 --> 00:16:26,720 that that's 407 00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:28,720 i don't i don't want to call it 408 00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:31,440 more risky but it does seem like a lot 409 00:16:34,629 --> 00:16:32,639 of the things 410 00:16:36,790 --> 00:16:34,639 are not as highlighted as in physical 411 00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:36,800 and physical has its own 412 00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:38,320 obviously 413 00:16:43,749 --> 00:16:41,360 you know fires etc floods things can 414 00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:43,759 take it out but that's a great answer 415 00:16:49,269 --> 00:16:46,560 and i love the injured cold i'm glad you 416 00:16:51,189 --> 00:16:49,279 mentioned that that is one of my most 417 00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:51,199 you know i think it's one of the most 418 00:16:55,509 --> 00:16:53,519 intriguing stories i've heard 419 00:16:57,189 --> 00:16:55,519 and 420 00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:57,199 if for our listeners could you kind of 421 00:17:00,710 --> 00:16:59,279 go into that a little bit that's i i 422 00:17:02,470 --> 00:17:00,720 find that a lot of people don't know 423 00:17:05,029 --> 00:17:02,480 about that and it's it's one of the one 424 00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:05,039 of the mighty ones yeah 425 00:17:09,590 --> 00:17:08,400 and it takes a weird turn too 426 00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:09,600 uh 427 00:17:20,069 --> 00:17:17,839 he worked in the shop but he also went 428 00:17:23,189 --> 00:17:20,079 on the road as a 429 00:17:25,029 --> 00:17:23,199 traveling salesman so he was on his way 430 00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:25,039 back he lived in parkersburg west 431 00:17:30,789 --> 00:17:27,600 virginia uh no mineral wells west 432 00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:30,799 virginia and he was on his way back home 433 00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:33,280 and this car what he thought was a car 434 00:17:37,830 --> 00:17:34,960 passed him and then 435 00:17:39,669 --> 00:17:37,840 it turned in front of him and 436 00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:39,679 traveled sideways and then slowed to a 437 00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:41,520 stop and forced him to stop he pulled 438 00:17:47,750 --> 00:17:43,600 off to the side of the road 439 00:17:50,230 --> 00:17:47,760 a door opened up this humanoid got out 440 00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:50,240 uh the crack lifted up 441 00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:52,720 he described it as being shaped like a 442 00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:53,600 uh 443 00:17:58,230 --> 00:17:56,240 the shade on the kerosene lantern 444 00:18:01,029 --> 00:17:58,240 and 445 00:18:03,510 --> 00:18:01,039 this gentleman came out in uh 446 00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:03,520 black clothing and seemed to be wearing 447 00:18:08,470 --> 00:18:06,320 uh a shirt of shiny metallic kind of 448 00:18:09,909 --> 00:18:08,480 material underneath of it 449 00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:09,919 um 450 00:18:13,590 --> 00:18:11,520 darren berger said he had a pleasant 451 00:18:14,789 --> 00:18:13,600 expression on his face 452 00:18:16,789 --> 00:18:14,799 and 453 00:18:19,029 --> 00:18:16,799 he told derenberger to roll down his 454 00:18:21,110 --> 00:18:19,039 window and here's one of the weird parts 455 00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:21,120 uh derenberger said he then came over to 456 00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:24,080 the passenger side and spoke to him 457 00:18:30,789 --> 00:18:26,960 telepathically through the closed window 458 00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:30,799 and uh he asked him uh you know what do 459 00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:33,760 you do i do work for a living 460 00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:37,200 and he asked what uh 461 00:18:40,390 --> 00:18:38,799 all the lights were in this one 462 00:18:41,909 --> 00:18:40,400 direction and 463 00:18:44,230 --> 00:18:41,919 derenberger replied that that was 464 00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:44,240 parkersburg we call that a town 465 00:18:47,669 --> 00:18:45,600 and 466 00:18:49,029 --> 00:18:47,679 colt said where i come from we call that 467 00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:49,039 a gathering 468 00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:51,280 uh so they had this 469 00:18:56,789 --> 00:18:54,320 telepathic conversation and then called 470 00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:56,799 said you know um go tell people what 471 00:19:01,110 --> 00:18:59,200 you've seen i'll come back and i'll back 472 00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:01,120 you up i'll tell you that you know i'll 473 00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:03,360 let people know that you're not 474 00:19:07,750 --> 00:19:04,960 making this up 475 00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:07,760 uh and so the craft came down cold went 476 00:19:14,070 --> 00:19:11,840 in craft takes off derenberger goes back 477 00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:14,080 you know goes back to his house his wife 478 00:19:18,710 --> 00:19:16,320 knows something's up and then he tells 479 00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:18,720 her the story and she says well you 480 00:19:21,270 --> 00:19:20,320 should call the police so he calls the 481 00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:21,280 police 482 00:19:25,029 --> 00:19:22,960 uh he wrote a book about this called 483 00:19:28,710 --> 00:19:25,039 visitors to lambulus 484 00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:28,720 or i think visitors from lanius 485 00:19:31,039 --> 00:19:34,549 he describes um 486 00:19:37,909 --> 00:19:36,070 talking until he 487 00:19:39,909 --> 00:19:37,919 he got too shaky to talk and his wife 488 00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:39,919 took over 489 00:19:45,590 --> 00:19:42,960 the police apparently told him that 490 00:19:46,390 --> 00:19:45,600 other people had reported this craft 491 00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:46,400 and 492 00:19:50,549 --> 00:19:48,320 they didn't laugh it off 493 00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:50,559 and the next day 494 00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:52,400 people came to he was working in the 495 00:19:57,110 --> 00:19:54,480 shop people came to the shop 496 00:20:00,470 --> 00:19:57,120 and one guy was the uh i think a 497 00:20:02,789 --> 00:20:00,480 producer uh or a reporter from a news 498 00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:02,799 program on the local news station and 499 00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:05,039 said you know would you be willing to be 500 00:20:10,789 --> 00:20:07,520 interviewed on air and he was and he 501 00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:10,799 told this story on air the very next day 502 00:20:14,070 --> 00:20:13,039 and you can find it on youtube 503 00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:14,080 um 504 00:20:17,430 --> 00:20:15,360 so 505 00:20:19,430 --> 00:20:17,440 if the story stopped right there you'd 506 00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:19,440 be okay yeah sure 507 00:20:25,909 --> 00:20:21,520 unfortunately 508 00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:27,270 he went on 509 00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:30,080 garenberger went on uh with his story 510 00:20:35,430 --> 00:20:33,120 and uh the first people to hear the 511 00:20:37,029 --> 00:20:35,440 the rest of the story were gray barker 512 00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:37,039 and john keel 513 00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:38,480 um 514 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:39,840 they were 515 00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:42,080 looking into the mothman mystery but 516 00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:44,000 along the way they said well you know we 517 00:20:46,830 --> 00:20:45,440 we should uh 518 00:20:49,669 --> 00:20:46,840 barker had already 519 00:20:52,070 --> 00:20:49,679 interviewed derenberger and so they went 520 00:20:52,789 --> 00:20:52,080 over and uh derenberger said okay you 521 00:20:54,549 --> 00:20:52,799 know 522 00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:54,559 first the the the 523 00:20:58,390 --> 00:20:56,480 humanoid told um 524 00:21:01,669 --> 00:20:58,400 derenberger his name was colt that's all 525 00:21:05,110 --> 00:21:01,679 he said uh and now derenberger in front 526 00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:05,120 of barker and keel said he gave him a 527 00:21:11,350 --> 00:21:08,400 first name indrid and that they visited 528 00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:11,360 and talked and at the time 529 00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:13,280 derenberger's house was 530 00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:14,960 his whole property was filled with 531 00:21:19,190 --> 00:21:17,039 people hoping to get a look at a 532 00:21:21,669 --> 00:21:19,200 spaceman or maybe get a shot of the 533 00:21:23,190 --> 00:21:21,679 spaceman who some of them were carrying 534 00:21:27,909 --> 00:21:23,200 guns 535 00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:29,590 derenberger started telling the story 536 00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:31,440 about them talking and said they came 537 00:21:36,230 --> 00:21:33,840 from a planet called lamulos 538 00:21:39,350 --> 00:21:36,240 where the people were very little to no 539 00:21:39,580 --> 00:21:39,360 clothing because it got hot 540 00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:39,590 and 541 00:21:43,669 --> 00:21:41,039 [Music] 542 00:21:45,669 --> 00:21:43,679 yeah he went on to say 543 00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:45,679 you know i got that they might come down 544 00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:46,400 and 545 00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:47,600 visit 546 00:21:54,149 --> 00:21:48,480 and 547 00:21:55,750 --> 00:21:54,159 derenberger's book he wrote that 548 00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:55,760 um 549 00:22:07,750 --> 00:21:56,880 he 550 00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:07,760 by um woodrow derenberger and written 551 00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:10,080 down by i forget the guy's name 552 00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:11,039 um 553 00:22:15,830 --> 00:22:12,720 but in any case in the book he talks 554 00:22:16,630 --> 00:22:15,840 about going to the planet and 555 00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:16,640 that 556 00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:18,240 the space people 557 00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:20,960 uh drove around in volkswagens 558 00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:24,720 and uh that you know 559 00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:26,400 the people on the planet weren't 560 00:22:30,310 --> 00:22:28,960 comfortable until he got nude so he took 561 00:22:31,830 --> 00:22:30,320 off all his clothes and they were 562 00:22:34,630 --> 00:22:31,840 comfortable around him 563 00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:34,640 so the story gets really really strange 564 00:22:38,230 --> 00:22:36,720 derensberger's life kind of fell apart 565 00:22:41,029 --> 00:22:38,240 after that 566 00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:41,039 um but i think it's a there are other 567 00:22:45,190 --> 00:22:43,200 tales like that where you'll have like 568 00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:45,200 something that seems to have a kernel of 569 00:22:48,789 --> 00:22:46,559 truth to it 570 00:22:50,070 --> 00:22:48,799 like something really happened and then 571 00:22:52,630 --> 00:22:50,080 maybe 572 00:22:54,789 --> 00:22:52,640 something went wacky with the witnesses 573 00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:54,799 mind and they just kept adding to this 574 00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:57,120 for attention or whatever 575 00:23:01,190 --> 00:22:59,440 or who knows maybe derenberger thought 576 00:23:03,110 --> 00:23:01,200 this stuff was really happening to him 577 00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:03,120 so it's definitely a mystery it's as 578 00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:05,200 silly as the story yet it's really 579 00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:06,400 intriguing 580 00:23:12,630 --> 00:23:10,000 it really is and i like i like the uh i 581 00:23:14,950 --> 00:23:12,640 like the kind of writing and i love john 582 00:23:16,870 --> 00:23:14,960 keel and this is a perfect 583 00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:16,880 perfect kind of uh 584 00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:18,960 loop around back to 585 00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:20,640 what we were discussing originally 586 00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:21,840 because 587 00:23:28,870 --> 00:23:25,520 john keel also had a sort of rejection 588 00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:28,880 of the extraterrestrial hypothesis 589 00:23:34,830 --> 00:23:32,400 like jay allen heineck and jack valet 590 00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:34,840 and i think they were all 591 00:23:40,149 --> 00:23:38,320 initially not rejecting it but certain 592 00:23:42,149 --> 00:23:40,159 things they found along the way maybe 593 00:23:44,149 --> 00:23:42,159 stories of volkswagens on different 594 00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:44,159 planets etc 595 00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:46,960 reinforce this is that erroneous to 596 00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:48,960 assume or how do you think they drew 597 00:23:52,870 --> 00:23:50,480 that conclusion 598 00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:52,880 of the rejection of the extraterrestrial 599 00:23:56,549 --> 00:23:55,440 hypothesis in general 600 00:23:59,350 --> 00:23:56,559 um 601 00:24:01,350 --> 00:23:59,360 i wouldn't say they entirely rejected it 602 00:24:02,470 --> 00:24:01,360 but 603 00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:02,480 they 604 00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:03,440 what 605 00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:05,120 made them different from a lot of the 606 00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:08,880 investigators is that they would 607 00:24:13,350 --> 00:24:11,200 um they wouldn't ignore the stuff that 608 00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:13,360 didn't fit in with the narrative so if 609 00:24:16,549 --> 00:24:15,600 you've got a narrative that these 610 00:24:19,149 --> 00:24:16,559 are 611 00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:19,159 nuts and bolts craft being piloted by 612 00:24:24,149 --> 00:24:21,840 extraterrestrials from other planets 613 00:24:26,950 --> 00:24:24,159 and then you hear that when the witness 614 00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:26,960 got on the ship they saw 615 00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:28,640 bunk beds it looked like they were made 616 00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:30,240 on earth and a 617 00:24:35,029 --> 00:24:32,880 wooden radio uh 618 00:24:37,269 --> 00:24:35,039 a lot of uh 619 00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:37,279 there were would be some investigators 620 00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:38,880 especially those who 621 00:24:41,269 --> 00:24:40,400 are writing books and trying to make 622 00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:41,279 money 623 00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:42,880 uh who would leave that stuff out 624 00:24:47,269 --> 00:24:44,320 because it didn't fit the narrative and 625 00:24:50,070 --> 00:24:47,279 made the story seem screwy whereas kiel 626 00:24:51,590 --> 00:24:50,080 said this is a significant 627 00:24:53,830 --> 00:24:51,600 thing if there's 628 00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:53,840 say if they they think they actually saw 629 00:24:58,870 --> 00:24:56,080 that you shouldn't discount it and you 630 00:25:01,669 --> 00:24:58,880 should make that you know part of the 631 00:25:02,870 --> 00:25:01,679 experience part of the phenomenon which 632 00:25:05,269 --> 00:25:02,880 you know it 633 00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:05,279 may mean the phenomenon is uh extra 634 00:25:07,990 --> 00:25:06,960 especially weird 635 00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:08,000 uh but 636 00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:10,240 you know don't discount that and keel 637 00:25:13,590 --> 00:25:11,840 was also 638 00:25:16,710 --> 00:25:13,600 open to what he called the silent 639 00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:16,720 contactees contactees got a really bad 640 00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:17,520 name 641 00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:18,480 uh 642 00:25:23,510 --> 00:25:21,360 because of george adamski and the circus 643 00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:23,520 that grew up around him and the other 644 00:25:26,830 --> 00:25:25,760 georges george van tassel and george 645 00:25:28,630 --> 00:25:26,840 king 646 00:25:30,789 --> 00:25:28,640 um 647 00:25:32,870 --> 00:25:30,799 so you know people didn't want to touch 648 00:25:35,110 --> 00:25:32,880 contact east stores with a 10-foot pole 649 00:25:37,750 --> 00:25:35,120 whereas keel was opened on especially 650 00:25:38,710 --> 00:25:37,760 ones that didn't seek publicity 651 00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:38,720 um 652 00:25:40,830 --> 00:25:39,520 so 653 00:25:41,830 --> 00:25:40,840 yeah and then 654 00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:41,840 yeah uh 655 00:25:46,230 --> 00:25:44,480 valet and uh heinek came around to this 656 00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:46,240 idea later i don't think directly 657 00:25:50,630 --> 00:25:49,200 influenced by keel but they 658 00:25:53,830 --> 00:25:50,640 must have 659 00:25:55,590 --> 00:25:53,840 on this 660 00:25:58,230 --> 00:25:55,600 and 661 00:26:01,350 --> 00:25:58,240 uh yeah so they uh 662 00:26:03,029 --> 00:26:01,360 fillet tied it into fairy lore 663 00:26:06,070 --> 00:26:03,039 um 664 00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:06,080 and heineken he was open to the idea 665 00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:07,760 that this was uh 666 00:26:11,590 --> 00:26:09,840 also from uh keel that this was some 667 00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:11,600 sort of consciousness that co-existed 668 00:26:16,149 --> 00:26:13,600 with us 669 00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:16,159 yes and i think i'm i'm glad that you 670 00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:18,240 kind of uh 671 00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:20,640 set me straight on that because 672 00:26:24,310 --> 00:26:22,240 the phenomenon 673 00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:24,320 i believe they use different terms you 674 00:26:27,990 --> 00:26:25,840 know they they 675 00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:28,000 they used ultra-terrestrial and 676 00:26:33,110 --> 00:26:30,159 inter-dimensional and these were these 677 00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:33,120 were earth-shattering terms at the time 678 00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:34,640 because 679 00:26:38,950 --> 00:26:36,720 up until that point it was just little 680 00:26:41,350 --> 00:26:38,960 green men 681 00:26:42,789 --> 00:26:41,360 yeah i actually said on one podcast that 682 00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:42,799 you know that narrative is actually sort 683 00:26:47,269 --> 00:26:45,200 of comforting and the the host was 684 00:26:48,870 --> 00:26:47,279 aghast 685 00:26:51,430 --> 00:26:48,880 and i said well you know 686 00:26:53,269 --> 00:26:51,440 the idea that this is something tangible 687 00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:53,279 physical something we could understand 688 00:26:58,789 --> 00:26:56,640 uh creatures with a motive 689 00:27:01,110 --> 00:26:58,799 isn't that a lot more comfortable that 690 00:27:02,390 --> 00:27:01,120 some sort of consciousness that coexists 691 00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:02,400 with us 692 00:27:11,430 --> 00:27:08,080 that has no discernible goals 693 00:27:14,710 --> 00:27:11,440 so true so true and keel also had some 694 00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:14,720 government um background i believe so 695 00:27:20,230 --> 00:27:16,240 that's interesting 696 00:27:22,950 --> 00:27:20,240 going into the the research and the 697 00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:22,960 formation of there was project blue book 698 00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:25,360 there was also the robinson panel i'm 699 00:27:28,710 --> 00:27:27,520 sorry robertson panel 700 00:27:30,789 --> 00:27:28,720 and 701 00:27:34,710 --> 00:27:30,799 it seemed like the central intelligence 702 00:27:35,990 --> 00:27:34,720 agency was and still is very interested 703 00:27:37,990 --> 00:27:36,000 in this and by 704 00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:38,000 at least by outward appearance hasn't 705 00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:40,720 figured it out yet 706 00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:43,120 i i think the cia's interest and you've 707 00:27:46,950 --> 00:27:45,520 also got the fbi that those are other 708 00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:46,960 files 709 00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:51,440 island incident and fbi uh what they 710 00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:54,880 call the vault i'm sure they kind of 711 00:28:00,830 --> 00:27:56,240 uh 712 00:28:03,110 --> 00:28:00,840 greenwald jr site the 713 00:28:06,070 --> 00:28:03,120 blackvault.com but they put uh they put 714 00:28:09,830 --> 00:28:06,080 all their unit they put a whole bunch of 715 00:28:10,870 --> 00:28:09,840 ufo files uh online uh the cia and the 716 00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:10,880 fbi 717 00:28:16,990 --> 00:28:15,520 interest seems to have been more 718 00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:17,000 uh if 719 00:28:22,789 --> 00:28:18,880 a lot of 720 00:28:27,430 --> 00:28:24,950 present themselves as working for the 721 00:28:29,269 --> 00:28:27,440 fbi occasionally and they would go 722 00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:29,279 investigate that 723 00:28:33,269 --> 00:28:30,720 and the cia 724 00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:33,279 it seems more to do with national 725 00:28:38,149 --> 00:28:35,440 security especially when people are 726 00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:38,159 leaking classified information 727 00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:42,480 that seems to be the cia's main interest 728 00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:44,480 and there's also been speculation uh 729 00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:45,840 jack brewer 730 00:28:50,630 --> 00:28:47,760 uh that there were a lot of links 731 00:28:52,389 --> 00:28:50,640 between the cia and my cap for instance 732 00:28:54,070 --> 00:28:52,399 a lot of uh ex 733 00:28:54,950 --> 00:28:54,080 cia members 734 00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:54,960 um 735 00:28:59,269 --> 00:28:58,000 were members of uh nycat starting with a 736 00:29:01,190 --> 00:28:59,279 hill encoder 737 00:29:03,350 --> 00:29:01,200 uh rosco hillencoder who was the first 738 00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,360 director of the cia 739 00:29:07,909 --> 00:29:05,760 but there's speculation that uh 740 00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:07,919 uh actually no i heard this from ben 741 00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:08,880 hanson 742 00:29:13,350 --> 00:29:10,720 ben hansen says well you know if you 743 00:29:15,990 --> 00:29:13,360 want to test somebody's uh 744 00:29:18,870 --> 00:29:16,000 see how well somebody can keep a secret 745 00:29:20,389 --> 00:29:18,880 give them something like a ufo story 746 00:29:25,430 --> 00:29:20,399 and if 747 00:29:27,350 --> 00:29:25,440 shows up in the ufo literature you know 748 00:29:28,870 --> 00:29:27,360 that you can't trust this guy you've got 749 00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:28,880 a leak 750 00:29:33,269 --> 00:29:31,600 and there was also the 751 00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:33,279 danger of 752 00:29:37,110 --> 00:29:36,320 adversaries infiltrating ufo groups 753 00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:37,120 to 754 00:29:40,950 --> 00:29:38,640 you know 755 00:29:43,110 --> 00:29:40,960 if you're talking ufos you're talking 756 00:29:46,149 --> 00:29:43,120 about you know what's being seen in the 757 00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:46,159 sky so and the possibility of weak 758 00:29:50,549 --> 00:29:48,159 information about um 759 00:29:52,549 --> 00:29:50,559 secret government projects so you know 760 00:29:54,630 --> 00:29:52,559 there's the fear that adversaries could 761 00:29:58,389 --> 00:29:54,640 get embedded in the ufo group and start 762 00:30:03,350 --> 00:30:00,710 an idea of 763 00:30:07,750 --> 00:30:05,990 experimental testing 764 00:30:10,549 --> 00:30:07,760 yeah i think that's a really good 765 00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:10,559 example an explanation by ben he's he's 766 00:30:14,230 --> 00:30:13,120 a friend of mine and i i really like his 767 00:30:15,830 --> 00:30:14,240 uh 768 00:30:18,389 --> 00:30:15,840 the way the way that he goes about 769 00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:18,399 things and he does have that government 770 00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:20,080 background as well 771 00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:22,320 and it does seem like spooks have been 772 00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:25,200 infiltrating the ufo community for years 773 00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:27,279 whether that be in the golden era or 774 00:30:31,029 --> 00:30:28,720 currently 775 00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:31,039 why why does this devoted group of 776 00:30:35,110 --> 00:30:32,720 intelligence officials continue to 777 00:30:39,029 --> 00:30:35,120 follow the ufo community 778 00:30:41,269 --> 00:30:39,039 even when the government disavows it 779 00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:41,279 um 780 00:30:45,029 --> 00:30:42,720 you know i think it's you know we've got 781 00:30:46,950 --> 00:30:45,039 to remember at any organization is made 782 00:30:48,789 --> 00:30:46,960 up of individuals 783 00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:48,799 uh so i think you know maybe some 784 00:30:53,190 --> 00:30:51,120 individuals actually richard doty seems 785 00:30:55,029 --> 00:30:53,200 to have an actual interest in ufos and 786 00:30:56,870 --> 00:30:55,039 he likes going to conventions he still 787 00:30:58,389 --> 00:30:56,880 does apparently 788 00:31:06,070 --> 00:30:58,399 um 789 00:31:07,590 --> 00:31:06,080 and 790 00:31:09,669 --> 00:31:07,600 you know i think there was a bit of a 791 00:31:11,669 --> 00:31:09,679 paranormal arms race between us and 792 00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:11,679 russia during the 80s 793 00:31:18,870 --> 00:31:16,789 so 794 00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:18,880 you know i i think there's 795 00:31:22,549 --> 00:31:21,120 maybe some of the disinformation that 796 00:31:24,710 --> 00:31:22,559 came down to pipe 797 00:31:26,710 --> 00:31:24,720 uh because the ufology really went off 798 00:31:28,710 --> 00:31:26,720 the rails in the 80s and 90s there was 799 00:31:29,909 --> 00:31:28,720 all there were all kinds of wild stories 800 00:31:32,310 --> 00:31:29,919 going around 801 00:31:33,909 --> 00:31:32,320 and especially like the bob lazar story 802 00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:33,919 uh no matter what you think of that 803 00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:35,440 maybe uh 804 00:31:39,029 --> 00:31:36,960 you know 805 00:31:41,590 --> 00:31:39,039 being kind to lazaro maybe he was 806 00:31:43,590 --> 00:31:41,600 actually shown stuff and 807 00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:43,600 convinced that this was actually alien 808 00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:46,080 text so that he would spread the story 809 00:31:50,549 --> 00:31:48,480 and that the russians would and other 810 00:31:52,149 --> 00:31:50,559 others would think that uh we had alien 811 00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:52,159 tech 812 00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:55,200 yeah it's true and and i i'm glad that 813 00:31:59,669 --> 00:31:57,360 your book focuses on 814 00:32:02,230 --> 00:31:59,679 the golden era or kind of like this age 815 00:32:02,950 --> 00:32:02,240 of it was like it was like a utopia back 816 00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:02,960 then 817 00:32:07,110 --> 00:32:04,880 it seemed like the investigators were 818 00:32:13,029 --> 00:32:07,120 more 819 00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:13,039 of what was going on than uh likes or 820 00:32:18,230 --> 00:32:15,519 clicks or ratings or the things that 821 00:32:19,590 --> 00:32:18,240 seem to muddy the water these days 822 00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:19,600 and 823 00:32:24,070 --> 00:32:21,600 john keel if i'm not mistaken also 824 00:32:25,509 --> 00:32:24,080 brought the term men in black sort of to 825 00:32:27,590 --> 00:32:25,519 the mainstream 826 00:32:30,789 --> 00:32:27,600 and it seems like 827 00:32:34,389 --> 00:32:30,799 these men in black have also kind of 828 00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:34,399 become part of the ufo phenomenon and 829 00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:36,480 is almost kind of they're stigmatized 830 00:32:40,630 --> 00:32:38,480 but they're also just kind of mixed in 831 00:32:42,630 --> 00:32:40,640 with the soup 832 00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:42,640 did you in your research did you find a 833 00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:45,360 lot of cases where men in black were 834 00:32:51,669 --> 00:32:48,799 involved or where investigators were 835 00:32:53,509 --> 00:32:51,679 writing these things down 836 00:32:55,269 --> 00:32:53,519 there was a 837 00:32:57,590 --> 00:32:55,279 a weird uh 838 00:32:59,590 --> 00:32:57,600 series of memos that came out of the air 839 00:33:02,870 --> 00:32:59,600 force to look out for people were 840 00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:02,880 impersonating air force officers 841 00:33:08,950 --> 00:33:06,399 there was a one particular case where 842 00:33:10,789 --> 00:33:08,960 ufo witnesses were rounded up and told 843 00:33:12,630 --> 00:33:10,799 to be quiet and 844 00:33:14,149 --> 00:33:12,640 the air force and they said they were 845 00:33:17,430 --> 00:33:14,159 from the air force and the air force had 846 00:33:22,830 --> 00:33:20,070 i think there was an article in 847 00:33:25,750 --> 00:33:22,840 the ufo investigator where uh 848 00:33:27,029 --> 00:33:25,760 specifically it was mentioned that a cia 849 00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:27,039 officer had 850 00:33:31,590 --> 00:33:29,200 intimidated a witness who was going to 851 00:33:33,029 --> 00:33:31,600 appear on a television program or a 852 00:33:36,789 --> 00:33:33,039 radio program 853 00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:36,799 um so there were those instances um they 854 00:33:41,350 --> 00:33:38,399 of course they 855 00:33:43,269 --> 00:33:41,360 play prominently in uh kiehl's book the 856 00:33:44,549 --> 00:33:43,279 month man prophecies 857 00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:44,559 um 858 00:33:48,789 --> 00:33:46,559 and and kiel seemed to think they were 859 00:33:51,430 --> 00:33:48,799 uh more ethereal 860 00:33:52,549 --> 00:33:51,440 or more you know that that they came 861 00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:52,559 from the 862 00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:54,480 the ultra-terrestrials 863 00:33:57,669 --> 00:33:55,440 um 864 00:34:00,070 --> 00:33:57,679 but yeah the the the the definite 865 00:34:01,750 --> 00:34:00,080 instances i saw were was 866 00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:01,760 specifically mentioned in the air force 867 00:34:06,070 --> 00:34:03,600 memo 868 00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:06,080 yeah and it it's that's informative 869 00:34:11,270 --> 00:34:08,560 because it seems that 870 00:34:14,069 --> 00:34:11,280 a lot of people have you know it's 871 00:34:16,550 --> 00:34:14,079 pretty much roswell is sort of the 872 00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:16,560 where they kick the football off 873 00:34:21,510 --> 00:34:19,200 um and everybody seemed to be 874 00:34:22,750 --> 00:34:21,520 referencing flying saucers after that 875 00:34:25,990 --> 00:34:22,760 point 876 00:34:27,589 --> 00:34:26,000 extraterrestrial contact encounters 877 00:34:28,790 --> 00:34:27,599 more sightings 878 00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:28,800 i'm sorry to interrupt you but that 879 00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:31,520 didn't really get going until the 70s 880 00:34:39,829 --> 00:34:38,629 before that uh it came and went 881 00:34:44,629 --> 00:34:39,839 it was 882 00:34:48,470 --> 00:34:44,639 weather balloon uh and the investigators 883 00:34:50,629 --> 00:34:48,480 said the event it happened in uh july 47 884 00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:50,639 and the private investigators didn't 885 00:34:56,950 --> 00:34:54,079 really get going until the 50s 886 00:34:59,349 --> 00:34:56,960 that makes sense so yeah yeah so it was 887 00:35:01,750 --> 00:34:59,359 a non-issue to them at the time which is 888 00:35:03,829 --> 00:35:01,760 why i really don't i don't talk about it 889 00:35:05,910 --> 00:35:03,839 at all in the book because it just it 890 00:35:08,710 --> 00:35:05,920 didn't exist to them 891 00:35:11,829 --> 00:35:08,720 um yeah stan friedman 892 00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:11,839 resurrected that in the 70s 893 00:35:17,270 --> 00:35:14,240 and it seems like at least in 894 00:35:19,109 --> 00:35:17,280 popular culture that's kind of when 895 00:35:20,310 --> 00:35:19,119 when when things 896 00:35:22,470 --> 00:35:20,320 and it seems like a lot of these 897 00:35:24,870 --> 00:35:22,480 government organizations sort of started 898 00:35:28,150 --> 00:35:24,880 up right around that same time period 899 00:35:29,910 --> 00:35:28,160 let's get to one that is more in the um 900 00:35:32,069 --> 00:35:29,920 kind of in the middle of the the playing 901 00:35:33,990 --> 00:35:32,079 field which is the betty and barney hill 902 00:35:35,109 --> 00:35:34,000 abduction story 903 00:35:36,470 --> 00:35:35,119 and 904 00:35:38,310 --> 00:35:36,480 their account 905 00:35:39,990 --> 00:35:38,320 uh do you think 906 00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:40,000 how much truth is there to that i mean 907 00:35:44,150 --> 00:35:41,520 there's a lot of ins and outs the 908 00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:44,160 pregnancy test what was your opinion of 909 00:35:50,550 --> 00:35:46,480 that endeavor 910 00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:50,560 i you know it's it's hard not to take 911 00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:54,950 and uh 912 00:35:59,190 --> 00:35:56,640 and barney 913 00:36:02,150 --> 00:35:59,200 he didn't last too long uh 914 00:36:03,349 --> 00:36:02,160 he died very shortly after the incident 915 00:36:05,829 --> 00:36:03,359 but 916 00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:05,839 you know there were weird symptoms uh he 917 00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:09,119 had the warts around his genitals his 918 00:36:15,190 --> 00:36:12,000 tops of his shoes were scraped after he 919 00:36:16,950 --> 00:36:15,200 been reported being dragged 920 00:36:18,550 --> 00:36:16,960 there was you know 921 00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:18,560 there was a lot of supporting stuff 922 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,069 and 923 00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:26,150 they they kept the lid on that story for 924 00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:28,560 years it didn't come out until um i 925 00:36:33,510 --> 00:36:30,640 forget the author's name but i think he 926 00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:33,520 wrote about it a reporter wrote about it 927 00:36:38,470 --> 00:36:35,760 in the uh boston traveler 928 00:36:40,950 --> 00:36:38,480 i think he somehow got a hold of some of 929 00:36:42,069 --> 00:36:40,960 their transcripts from their hypnosis 930 00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:42,079 sessions 931 00:36:46,630 --> 00:36:44,079 and wrote up uh 932 00:36:49,030 --> 00:36:46,640 an article in the boston traveler and 933 00:36:49,829 --> 00:36:49,040 without the hill's permission 934 00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:49,839 and 935 00:36:54,150 --> 00:36:52,000 with you know without them wanting it to 936 00:36:55,589 --> 00:36:54,160 it it went big time it went 937 00:36:56,950 --> 00:36:55,599 international 938 00:36:58,069 --> 00:36:56,960 um 939 00:36:59,030 --> 00:36:58,079 so 940 00:37:02,790 --> 00:36:59,040 you know i 941 00:37:05,109 --> 00:37:02,800 yeah that story that definitely 942 00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:05,119 is one of those where you know i believe 943 00:37:11,510 --> 00:37:05,920 they 944 00:37:13,030 --> 00:37:11,520 experience something 945 00:37:14,630 --> 00:37:13,040 and we're telling the truth about what 946 00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:14,640 they experienced 947 00:37:19,829 --> 00:37:17,440 yeah it's a it's a freaky case it is not 948 00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:19,839 all nonsense and 949 00:37:23,589 --> 00:37:22,160 in your opinion you know a lot of folks 950 00:37:25,190 --> 00:37:23,599 now it seems like with a lot of 951 00:37:27,750 --> 00:37:25,200 researchers 952 00:37:30,069 --> 00:37:27,760 this happens after their death they are 953 00:37:32,550 --> 00:37:30,079 kind of memorialized and turned into 954 00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:32,560 martyrs and i see that with heinek a lot 955 00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:34,560 do you think he realized that he was 956 00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:38,400 going to have this lifelong you know 957 00:37:42,069 --> 00:37:41,280 endeavor of becoming the ufo guy and 958 00:37:44,069 --> 00:37:42,079 then 959 00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:44,079 taking jacques vallee under his wing i 960 00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:46,480 mean they were quite the dynamic duo 961 00:37:50,230 --> 00:37:47,920 do you think he knew 962 00:37:55,750 --> 00:37:50,240 yeah 963 00:37:58,150 --> 00:37:55,760 for a long time he was getting paid as a 964 00:38:00,950 --> 00:37:58,160 consultant by the air force for the 965 00:38:05,349 --> 00:38:00,960 entirety of their investigation 966 00:38:07,030 --> 00:38:05,359 um from like 48 until 69. 967 00:38:09,990 --> 00:38:07,040 um 968 00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:10,000 and in the beginning he was doing his 969 00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:12,480 duty as an astronomer and as a scientist 970 00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:17,510 you know he he was 971 00:38:21,270 --> 00:38:19,920 kind of a villain for 972 00:38:23,190 --> 00:38:21,280 most you know 973 00:38:25,030 --> 00:38:23,200 up until the uh 974 00:38:26,069 --> 00:38:25,040 all the way up until the infamous swamp 975 00:38:28,349 --> 00:38:26,079 gas 976 00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:28,359 episode in 977 00:38:35,670 --> 00:38:31,200 1966 in michigan 978 00:38:37,990 --> 00:38:35,680 um he what's funny is he actually at the 979 00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:38,000 conference at the news conference where 980 00:38:43,190 --> 00:38:40,800 you can you can see on youtube 981 00:38:45,270 --> 00:38:43,200 he says marsh gas i don't hear him say 982 00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:45,280 swamp gas at all i don't know if he said 983 00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:47,280 it off camera or if there's you know 984 00:38:51,829 --> 00:38:49,839 missing footage but he said marsh gas 985 00:38:53,349 --> 00:38:51,839 but it became swamp gas 986 00:38:55,670 --> 00:38:53,359 um 987 00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:55,680 so yeah he explained away some sightings 988 00:39:00,630 --> 00:38:58,079 as uh 989 00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:00,640 he mentioned a couple of possibilities 990 00:39:05,430 --> 00:39:04,240 um and included the idea that uh 991 00:39:07,750 --> 00:39:05,440 since a lot of these sightings in 992 00:39:09,430 --> 00:39:07,760 michigan were around the swamp 993 00:39:10,470 --> 00:39:09,440 that 994 00:39:12,870 --> 00:39:10,480 you had 995 00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:12,880 gas from the swamp 996 00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:16,640 would ignite uh in one area and then go 997 00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:19,200 out and then ignite another and then go 998 00:39:21,990 --> 00:39:20,160 out 999 00:39:24,470 --> 00:39:22,000 and it would give the appearance of 1000 00:39:26,710 --> 00:39:24,480 movement 1001 00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:26,720 and 1002 00:39:32,470 --> 00:39:29,040 he was vilified for that 1003 00:39:33,750 --> 00:39:32,480 and he shows up in um 1004 00:39:35,910 --> 00:39:33,760 the uh 1005 00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:35,920 well the major publications for the two 1006 00:39:40,390 --> 00:39:38,720 biggest groups uh nycap in april at the 1007 00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:40,400 time the aerial phenomena research 1008 00:39:45,510 --> 00:39:42,880 organization run by jim and core lorenz 1009 00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:45,520 and they put out the apro bulletin and 1010 00:39:51,270 --> 00:39:48,480 nycat put out the ufo investigator 1011 00:39:53,670 --> 00:39:51,280 and heineken is you know it just 1012 00:39:55,190 --> 00:39:53,680 shows up as 1013 00:39:59,190 --> 00:39:55,200 a bit of a villain 1014 00:40:01,670 --> 00:39:59,200 throughout their publications until 1015 00:40:03,589 --> 00:40:01,680 after the 60s especially when james 1016 00:40:05,829 --> 00:40:03,599 mcdonald 1017 00:40:08,710 --> 00:40:05,839 took him the task for 1018 00:40:10,790 --> 00:40:08,720 a lot of mcdonald's got a look at a lot 1019 00:40:13,109 --> 00:40:10,800 of the the blue book files 1020 00:40:14,309 --> 00:40:13,119 and saw heineck writing off what he 1021 00:40:15,829 --> 00:40:14,319 thought 1022 00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:15,839 were just 1023 00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:17,920 good sightings with ridiculous uh 1024 00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:19,920 explanations and heinek would sign off 1025 00:40:21,670 --> 00:40:20,960 on them 1026 00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:21,680 and 1027 00:40:25,990 --> 00:40:24,640 macdonald really hammered him for that 1028 00:40:28,309 --> 00:40:26,000 and uh 1029 00:40:30,309 --> 00:40:28,319 especially after the condon report came 1030 00:40:33,109 --> 00:40:30,319 out hynek 1031 00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:33,119 stood up and said you know that that 1032 00:40:37,750 --> 00:40:35,680 this should be looked at scientifically 1033 00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:37,760 it seems the the socorro case really 1034 00:40:43,430 --> 00:40:41,280 turned heineken around was one of a few 1035 00:40:47,829 --> 00:40:43,440 um 1036 00:40:53,270 --> 00:40:49,430 towards the end of his life i actually 1037 00:41:01,349 --> 00:40:57,270 there's a recent biography of him um 1038 00:41:06,230 --> 00:41:03,430 i just read it too anyway there's a 1039 00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:06,240 recent biography of him and towards the 1040 00:41:09,589 --> 00:41:07,250 end of his life 1041 00:41:11,750 --> 00:41:09,599 [Music] 1042 00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:11,760 a millionaire actually said you know he 1043 00:41:15,589 --> 00:41:14,400 would give him funding to start a ufo 1044 00:41:16,390 --> 00:41:15,599 center 1045 00:41:32,550 --> 00:41:16,400 in 1046 00:41:34,950 --> 00:41:32,560 down there and just you know devote the 1047 00:41:36,870 --> 00:41:34,960 rest of his life to ufo research 1048 00:41:39,030 --> 00:41:36,880 uh and that kind of fell through when he 1049 00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:39,040 died shortly thereafter 1050 00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:40,400 but uh 1051 00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:42,960 yeah i i guess he he sort of accepted 1052 00:41:47,030 --> 00:41:45,599 his fate but he actually 1053 00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:47,040 did a lot 1054 00:41:52,309 --> 00:41:49,200 in astronomy and 1055 00:41:55,510 --> 00:41:52,319 i think he developed uh 1056 00:41:57,349 --> 00:41:55,520 photographic techniques for satellites 1057 00:41:59,670 --> 00:41:57,359 he did a lot for astronomy and that's 1058 00:42:00,950 --> 00:41:59,680 all forgotten 1059 00:42:03,589 --> 00:42:00,960 so 1060 00:42:06,150 --> 00:42:03,599 it just seems that if you get into this 1061 00:42:08,630 --> 00:42:06,160 you you end up becoming known for 1062 00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:08,640 ufology and all the other stuff you do 1063 00:42:12,950 --> 00:42:10,960 it seems to be kept forgotten 1064 00:42:15,349 --> 00:42:12,960 for instance james mcdonald was a 1065 00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:15,359 brilliant 1066 00:42:21,349 --> 00:42:18,240 atmosphere's atmospheric physicist 1067 00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:21,359 uh and everybody knows him as a ufo guy 1068 00:42:25,349 --> 00:42:22,960 so 1069 00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:25,359 yeah and it does seem like if the longer 1070 00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:27,359 you're in this the more that you're 1071 00:42:30,870 --> 00:42:29,520 vilified for whatever reason it's if 1072 00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:30,880 you're in the game long enough you 1073 00:42:35,270 --> 00:42:32,640 become the villain and 1074 00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:35,280 some people have that belief of some 1075 00:42:42,630 --> 00:42:37,920 researchers i'm glad you mentioned the 1076 00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:42,640 um lonnie zamora incident the socorro 1077 00:42:47,750 --> 00:42:44,560 incident and because that kind of leads 1078 00:42:49,670 --> 00:42:47,760 into you know these a lot of new mexican 1079 00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:49,680 desert cases 1080 00:42:54,309 --> 00:42:53,280 uh 1081 00:42:56,870 --> 00:42:54,319 and 1082 00:43:00,150 --> 00:42:56,880 grizzly cattle mutilations where do they 1083 00:43:02,790 --> 00:43:00,160 come into the ufo subject matter in your 1084 00:43:06,550 --> 00:43:04,069 uh 1085 00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:06,560 you know i 1086 00:43:12,550 --> 00:43:10,240 that that that's a slippery slope 1087 00:43:14,470 --> 00:43:12,560 the people have 1088 00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:14,480 done much more 1089 00:43:18,390 --> 00:43:16,720 i haven't done anything in in terms of 1090 00:43:19,829 --> 00:43:18,400 that i'm you know i'm an historical 1091 00:43:22,069 --> 00:43:19,839 researcher 1092 00:43:23,829 --> 00:43:22,079 um and that's where i like to 1093 00:43:27,510 --> 00:43:23,839 stay um 1094 00:43:28,390 --> 00:43:27,520 you know so i'm uh according to 1095 00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:28,400 uh 1096 00:43:35,510 --> 00:43:32,880 you know it it keeps me safe um i 1097 00:43:36,790 --> 00:43:35,520 i'm i'm an agnostic 1098 00:43:37,829 --> 00:43:36,800 um 1099 00:43:39,990 --> 00:43:37,839 and 1100 00:43:41,510 --> 00:43:40,000 you know there are days i i believe 1101 00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:41,520 everything there are days i believe 1102 00:43:44,630 --> 00:43:43,280 nothing actually a quote from gray 1103 00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:44,640 barker and 1104 00:43:47,510 --> 00:43:46,240 he was actually quoted as saying i 1105 00:43:49,030 --> 00:43:47,520 believe in that you know what do you 1106 00:43:50,710 --> 00:43:49,040 believe gray and he says i believe in 1107 00:43:54,710 --> 00:43:50,720 everything and nothing 1108 00:43:55,589 --> 00:43:54,720 and i kind of go along with that 1109 00:43:57,589 --> 00:43:55,599 and 1110 00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:57,599 you know looking at it as folklore i 1111 00:44:01,190 --> 00:43:59,200 think is really interesting but anyway 1112 00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:01,200 back to cattle mutilations as i'm trying 1113 00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:02,800 to avoid the subject 1114 00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:07,349 gabe valdez 1115 00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:10,160 did it was a policeman up in dulce new 1116 00:44:13,829 --> 00:44:11,520 mexico 1117 00:44:15,750 --> 00:44:13,839 um 1118 00:44:17,910 --> 00:44:15,760 did some 1119 00:44:19,349 --> 00:44:17,920 did a lot of investigation into cattle 1120 00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:19,359 mutilation 1121 00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:20,880 uh because it was you know in his 1122 00:44:25,349 --> 00:44:22,720 backyard 1123 00:44:30,309 --> 00:44:27,430 he seemed to come to the conclusion that 1124 00:44:33,190 --> 00:44:30,319 it was uh humans and an interesting 1125 00:44:35,349 --> 00:44:33,200 thing about dolce is they did a 1126 00:44:37,670 --> 00:44:35,359 there was this whole thing uh atoms for 1127 00:44:39,990 --> 00:44:37,680 peace movement 1128 00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:40,000 were they were trying to come up with 1129 00:44:44,069 --> 00:44:41,680 peaceful 1130 00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:44,079 uses of atomic 1131 00:44:49,589 --> 00:44:45,920 bombs essentially 1132 00:44:52,309 --> 00:44:49,599 the idea of blowing up a 1133 00:44:53,829 --> 00:44:52,319 nuclear weapons to divert hurricanes uh 1134 00:44:56,710 --> 00:44:53,839 i think uh 1135 00:44:59,750 --> 00:44:56,720 our former president actually floated 1136 00:45:02,470 --> 00:44:59,760 that idea uh which is not feasible 1137 00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:02,480 uh but another thing they they did up 1138 00:45:07,829 --> 00:45:04,960 around dulce was 1139 00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:07,839 it was called project gas buggy 1140 00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:08,720 so 1141 00:45:14,069 --> 00:45:12,000 essentially it was uh atomic fracking 1142 00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:14,079 they buried an atomic 1143 00:45:19,910 --> 00:45:17,520 weapon and blew it up 1144 00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:19,920 and unfortunately the gas they were 1145 00:45:24,230 --> 00:45:22,960 hoping to release was wholly radiated 1146 00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:24,240 and 1147 00:45:28,069 --> 00:45:26,400 therefore useless 1148 00:45:30,470 --> 00:45:28,079 um 1149 00:45:32,069 --> 00:45:30,480 so you've got a source of radiation 1150 00:45:34,630 --> 00:45:32,079 right up there in dulce and then all of 1151 00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:34,640 a sudden you got cattle mutilation so 1152 00:45:40,069 --> 00:45:37,200 there's speculation that part of that 1153 00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:40,079 was government testing to see you know 1154 00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:41,599 if our 1155 00:45:46,950 --> 00:45:43,680 food stock has been poisoned by 1156 00:45:47,910 --> 00:45:46,960 radiation and plus that whole area 1157 00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:47,920 you know 1158 00:45:54,309 --> 00:45:51,440 all the nuclear testing in uh nevada 1159 00:45:57,030 --> 00:45:54,319 uh is not too far from the whole area 1160 00:45:59,670 --> 00:45:57,040 where uh you know the the winds went all 1161 00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:59,680 over colorado and all the all over that 1162 00:46:05,190 --> 00:46:00,720 area 1163 00:46:06,150 --> 00:46:05,200 so the idea that they're testing for uh 1164 00:46:11,270 --> 00:46:06,160 you know 1165 00:46:12,790 --> 00:46:11,280 contamination is is not that far fetched 1166 00:46:15,109 --> 00:46:12,800 but then if you 1167 00:46:18,230 --> 00:46:15,119 go with the idea that the phenomena is 1168 00:46:21,349 --> 00:46:18,240 reflective i think other people have is 1169 00:46:23,670 --> 00:46:21,359 uh who specialize in cattle mutilation 1170 00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:23,680 um so yeah that's as far as i go with 1171 00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:25,440 cattle mutilation 1172 00:46:30,790 --> 00:46:27,680 i hear you that's it's it's a very 1173 00:46:33,750 --> 00:46:30,800 slippery slope and gabe valdez added a 1174 00:46:36,630 --> 00:46:33,760 very interesting uh 1175 00:46:38,870 --> 00:46:36,640 trump card to the mix with his research 1176 00:46:40,950 --> 00:46:38,880 another case that i wanted to ask your 1177 00:46:46,309 --> 00:46:40,960 opinion about is one of my favorite 1178 00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:46,319 cases and in 1952 there was a flatwoods 1179 00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:49,920 monster that seemed to terrify 1180 00:46:55,190 --> 00:46:52,800 gosh six kids a mom a dog and pretty 1181 00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:55,200 much the whole world 1182 00:46:58,230 --> 00:46:56,480 what are your thoughts 1183 00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:58,240 of that case 1184 00:47:02,710 --> 00:47:00,400 yeah well okay let me 1185 00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:02,720 let me tell you about my my journey 1186 00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:03,520 first 1187 00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:05,760 i actually stay stayed in magdalena new 1188 00:47:11,910 --> 00:47:09,040 mexico magdaleno is where lonnie zamora 1189 00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:11,920 was uh i think he was born and raised 1190 00:47:17,430 --> 00:47:14,000 i actually spoke to people that knew 1191 00:47:21,109 --> 00:47:19,430 the policeman who saw the craft during 1192 00:47:22,150 --> 00:47:21,119 the socorro incident 1193 00:47:24,150 --> 00:47:22,160 one of the 1194 00:47:26,470 --> 00:47:24,160 great quotes uh somebody told me at a 1195 00:47:28,710 --> 00:47:26,480 party was uh lonnie was interviewed and 1196 00:47:31,109 --> 00:47:28,720 said uh the interviewer asked him sir 1197 00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:31,119 were you in a state of confusion he says 1198 00:47:35,430 --> 00:47:34,160 no sir i was in the state of new mexico 1199 00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:35,440 um 1200 00:47:39,510 --> 00:47:38,240 but anyway uh on my way back to queens i 1201 00:47:42,549 --> 00:47:39,520 drove back 1202 00:47:45,829 --> 00:47:42,559 uh so i stopped at roswell 1203 00:47:50,870 --> 00:47:45,839 and then my next stop was west virginia 1204 00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:50,880 so i stopped in clarksburg excuse me in 1205 00:47:54,950 --> 00:47:52,960 sutton county west virginia 1206 00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:54,960 uh which is uh around the flatwoods 1207 00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:56,640 where and i stopped at the flatwoods 1208 00:47:59,109 --> 00:47:58,240 monster museum 1209 00:48:03,190 --> 00:47:59,119 uh 1210 00:48:06,230 --> 00:48:03,200 it's got some original newspaper 1211 00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:06,240 clippings uh i think uh original artwork 1212 00:48:09,910 --> 00:48:08,240 uh done 1213 00:48:11,589 --> 00:48:09,920 of the monster 1214 00:48:13,109 --> 00:48:11,599 um 1215 00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:13,119 and uh 1216 00:48:16,950 --> 00:48:15,200 yeah i spoke with the 1217 00:48:20,230 --> 00:48:16,960 the gentleman who runs the flatwoods 1218 00:48:22,549 --> 00:48:20,240 monsters museum uh so i'm a big fan of 1219 00:48:25,030 --> 00:48:22,559 that case and um 1220 00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:25,040 and then afterwards i stopped in clark i 1221 00:48:28,390 --> 00:48:26,480 stopped at point pleasant went to the 1222 00:48:30,630 --> 00:48:28,400 mothman museum and i stopped at the 1223 00:48:31,430 --> 00:48:30,640 clarksburg harrison public library and 1224 00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:31,440 uh 1225 00:48:36,150 --> 00:48:33,040 got to 1226 00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:36,160 peruse the gray barker collection and 1227 00:48:40,549 --> 00:48:38,160 talk with david houchin who was a 1228 00:48:42,870 --> 00:48:40,559 curator there 1229 00:48:44,230 --> 00:48:42,880 so it was an amazing journey back to 1230 00:48:46,390 --> 00:48:44,240 queens 1231 00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:46,400 but the flatwoods monster case it's 1232 00:48:49,990 --> 00:48:48,640 always fascinated me that's it's such a 1233 00:48:51,109 --> 00:48:50,000 weird one 1234 00:48:52,230 --> 00:48:51,119 um 1235 00:48:56,390 --> 00:48:52,240 and 1236 00:49:00,549 --> 00:48:58,230 there's speculation it was an owl but 1237 00:49:02,470 --> 00:49:00,559 they saw it underneath the branch and 1238 00:49:04,230 --> 00:49:02,480 normally you would see an owl 1239 00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:04,240 sitting on top of a branch they use the 1240 00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:06,400 branch to estimate its height i think at 1241 00:49:13,270 --> 00:49:11,510 and a thing that gets left out you know 1242 00:49:17,190 --> 00:49:13,280 everybody talks about the monster but 1243 00:49:20,230 --> 00:49:17,200 what gets left out is that they also saw 1244 00:49:21,670 --> 00:49:20,240 i think it was a big 1245 00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:21,680 half dome 1246 00:49:24,549 --> 00:49:22,800 glowing 1247 00:49:26,390 --> 00:49:24,559 the size of a house 1248 00:49:29,670 --> 00:49:26,400 that this 1249 00:49:31,910 --> 00:49:29,680 creature or robot or whatever it was 1250 00:49:32,870 --> 00:49:31,920 made an arc towards 1251 00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:32,880 after 1252 00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:36,160 it released gas and hissed at them and 1253 00:49:40,309 --> 00:49:37,520 uh 1254 00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:40,319 they ran screaming but this thing made a 1255 00:49:45,270 --> 00:49:42,319 an arc towards 1256 00:49:47,190 --> 00:49:45,280 what could have been some sort of craft 1257 00:49:48,069 --> 00:49:47,200 according to the witnesses 1258 00:49:49,990 --> 00:49:48,079 uh 1259 00:49:52,470 --> 00:49:50,000 so it's 1260 00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:52,480 it's a really interesting case and gray 1261 00:49:54,950 --> 00:49:54,000 barker 1262 00:49:56,950 --> 00:49:54,960 did a 1263 00:49:58,470 --> 00:49:56,960 really good investigation of it 1264 00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:58,480 interviewed all the witnesses and got 1265 00:50:02,870 --> 00:49:59,839 their stories 1266 00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:05,670 ivan t sanderson also investigated the 1267 00:50:08,710 --> 00:50:06,720 case 1268 00:50:10,950 --> 00:50:08,720 his speculation that there were a whole 1269 00:50:13,670 --> 00:50:10,960 bunch of fireballs seen 1270 00:50:17,109 --> 00:50:13,680 i think traveling uh northeast to 1271 00:50:18,630 --> 00:50:17,119 southwest uh across a lot of states 1272 00:50:21,829 --> 00:50:18,640 um 1273 00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:21,839 and his speculation i think 1274 00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:24,480 he counted six and his speculation on 1275 00:50:32,470 --> 00:50:30,549 one of these crafts 1276 00:50:34,230 --> 00:50:32,480 the air was so polluted over west 1277 00:50:36,230 --> 00:50:34,240 virginia that one of the crafts got into 1278 00:50:38,710 --> 00:50:36,240 trouble and had to crash land and that 1279 00:50:41,750 --> 00:50:38,720 was the one with the monster in it 1280 00:50:43,829 --> 00:50:41,760 so but it's yeah it's a really cool case 1281 00:50:46,069 --> 00:50:43,839 i mean and and the monster is absolutely 1282 00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:46,079 iconic 1283 00:50:51,510 --> 00:50:48,720 it really is it's it's one of those 1284 00:50:53,589 --> 00:50:51,520 cases that i mean there's there's 1285 00:50:56,470 --> 00:50:53,599 just no rhyme or reason to and it 1286 00:50:57,270 --> 00:50:56,480 doesn't fit in any of the boxes 1287 00:51:00,470 --> 00:50:57,280 and 1288 00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:02,390 it's just wild it's just wild that 1289 00:51:08,630 --> 00:51:05,920 everybody was so horrified by this this 1290 00:51:09,870 --> 00:51:08,640 frankenstein looking 1291 00:51:12,150 --> 00:51:09,880 robotic 1292 00:51:13,270 --> 00:51:12,160 extraterrestrial more or less 1293 00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:13,280 and 1294 00:51:17,430 --> 00:51:16,480 i had never heard that suspenseful i 1295 00:51:18,549 --> 00:51:17,440 that that 1296 00:51:20,069 --> 00:51:18,559 the air 1297 00:51:22,069 --> 00:51:20,079 i was kind of in suspense about that 1298 00:51:25,750 --> 00:51:22,079 that the air was actually polluted i had 1299 00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:25,760 never heard that that's fascinating 1300 00:51:31,349 --> 00:51:28,880 yeah west virginia's coal country so 1301 00:51:32,630 --> 00:51:31,359 oh that could explain it i i think that 1302 00:51:34,829 --> 00:51:32,640 was what 1303 00:51:37,670 --> 00:51:34,839 sanderson was talking about 1304 00:51:40,470 --> 00:51:37,680 um but uh 1305 00:51:42,309 --> 00:51:40,480 oh yeah i i want to mention uh 1306 00:51:45,030 --> 00:51:42,319 seth breedlove uh 1307 00:51:47,349 --> 00:51:45,040 documentarian just did uh 1308 00:51:49,349 --> 00:51:47,359 he did a documentary not just it was 1309 00:51:51,510 --> 00:51:49,359 probably a couple years ago did a 1310 00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:51,520 documentary on the flatwoods case and he 1311 00:51:54,790 --> 00:51:52,800 actually interviewed two of the 1312 00:51:56,069 --> 00:51:54,800 witnesses who were just kids uh ed and 1313 00:51:58,309 --> 00:51:56,079 fred may 1314 00:52:00,069 --> 00:51:58,319 uh so you can see like a modern 1315 00:52:02,950 --> 00:52:00,079 interview of these two guys talking 1316 00:52:07,109 --> 00:52:04,549 so yeah i highly recommend that 1317 00:52:08,390 --> 00:52:07,119 documentary just for that 1318 00:52:10,870 --> 00:52:08,400 the fact that you've got two of the 1319 00:52:13,030 --> 00:52:10,880 original witnesses still live today 1320 00:52:14,870 --> 00:52:13,040 talking about the case and you know they 1321 00:52:16,150 --> 00:52:14,880 stick to their story one thing they do 1322 00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:16,160 say though 1323 00:52:19,910 --> 00:52:18,240 is that uh the reports of everybody 1324 00:52:21,430 --> 00:52:19,920 getting sick 1325 00:52:22,870 --> 00:52:21,440 were false 1326 00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:22,880 uh which is interesting because that 1327 00:52:26,150 --> 00:52:24,640 seems to be a key element of the case 1328 00:52:29,430 --> 00:52:26,160 where you know they reported that the 1329 00:52:31,430 --> 00:52:29,440 witnesses were vomiting and that the 1330 00:52:33,270 --> 00:52:31,440 dog died there's actually three versions 1331 00:52:35,589 --> 00:52:33,280 of what happened to the dog 1332 00:52:37,510 --> 00:52:35,599 uh one he caught under a porch when he 1333 00:52:38,630 --> 00:52:37,520 vomited on the porch and when he died on 1334 00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:38,640 the porch 1335 00:52:41,910 --> 00:52:39,680 so 1336 00:52:44,470 --> 00:52:41,920 uh but yeah according to the maze uh 1337 00:52:45,589 --> 00:52:44,480 that part was false 1338 00:52:47,190 --> 00:52:45,599 interesting 1339 00:52:48,309 --> 00:52:47,200 i never knew that 1340 00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:48,319 uh 1341 00:52:53,510 --> 00:52:51,280 as we sort of wrap up here 1342 00:52:56,630 --> 00:52:53,520 where can listeners 1343 00:52:59,030 --> 00:52:56,640 delve into your accumulation of all this 1344 00:53:00,470 --> 00:52:59,040 research the flying saucer investigators 1345 00:53:02,390 --> 00:53:00,480 your book 1346 00:53:04,470 --> 00:53:02,400 how do you recommend they get their 1347 00:53:06,549 --> 00:53:04,480 hands on this book and support your 1348 00:53:07,549 --> 00:53:06,559 research efforts 1349 00:53:11,589 --> 00:53:07,559 oh 1350 00:53:14,710 --> 00:53:11,599 amazon.com it's available in kindle 1351 00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:14,720 audiobook hardcover softcover 1352 00:53:17,750 --> 00:53:15,920 i think 1353 00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:17,760 flyingdiskpress.com 1354 00:53:22,470 --> 00:53:20,000 you can get a copy there as well 1355 00:53:24,630 --> 00:53:22,480 and i will write a weekly blog for 1356 00:53:27,030 --> 00:53:24,640 martin a written version of podcast 1357 00:53:29,829 --> 00:53:27,040 ufo.com 1358 00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:29,839 and i do an audio version of 1359 00:53:34,390 --> 00:53:32,400 martin posts on his uh 1360 00:53:37,349 --> 00:53:34,400 youtube site uh 1361 00:53:39,030 --> 00:53:37,359 martin willis podcast ufo will probably 1362 00:53:41,510 --> 00:53:39,040 get you there 1363 00:53:42,870 --> 00:53:41,520 that is great that is great 1364 00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:42,880 and 1365 00:53:47,589 --> 00:53:45,760 as as we as we wrap up charles i can't 1366 00:53:49,670 --> 00:53:47,599 thank you enough for being so patient 1367 00:53:51,589 --> 00:53:49,680 with me had i had some family 1368 00:53:54,470 --> 00:53:51,599 emergencies and 1369 00:53:56,470 --> 00:53:54,480 technical uh drenchings 1370 00:53:58,150 --> 00:53:56,480 and other things but it's all good no 1371 00:54:00,309 --> 00:53:58,160 it's been it's been a great conversation 1372 00:54:04,309 --> 00:54:00,319 ryan and i know you got a flat tire 1373 00:54:06,470 --> 00:54:04,319 today so i i really appreciate your your 1374 00:54:08,150 --> 00:54:06,480 your diligence your research and your 1375 00:54:10,710 --> 00:54:08,160 ability to just kind of work with me and 1376 00:54:11,829 --> 00:54:10,720 get this done i appreciate it 1377 00:54:13,510 --> 00:54:11,839 no problem 1378 00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:13,520 thanks so much and i hope we can talk 1379 00:54:16,710 --> 00:54:14,880 again 1380 00:54:19,190 --> 00:54:16,720 absolutely all right brian you have a 1381 00:54:22,309 --> 00:54:19,200 great night take care you too 1382 00:54:24,309 --> 00:54:22,319 cheers okay we are off and i will uh as 1383 00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:24,319 soon as this is up i'll send you a link 1384 00:54:30,150 --> 00:54:26,400 and i can i don't know what you prefer i 1385 00:54:33,990 --> 00:54:30,160 can send you a youtube link um an anchor 1386 00:54:35,589 --> 00:54:34,000 audio only link um or i can send it uh 1387 00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:35,599 in a few other formats what do you 1388 00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:36,640 usually 1389 00:54:39,670 --> 00:54:37,680 like 1390 00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:39,680 youtube will be fine whatever's easiest 1391 00:54:42,870 --> 00:54:41,200 for you that's what i'll do charles 1392 00:54:44,710 --> 00:54:42,880 thanks so much my man i hope you have a 1393 00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:44,720 great afternoon 1394 00:54:49,910 --> 00:54:48,240 you too ryan cheers take care 1395 00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:49,920 there you have it ladies and gentlemen 1396 00:54:54,230 --> 00:54:52,480 charles lear someone who has 1397 00:54:55,990 --> 00:54:54,240 done the work 1398 00:54:59,589 --> 00:54:56,000 done the research 1399 00:55:02,390 --> 00:54:59,599 and he's really connected a lot of dots 1400 00:55:04,150 --> 00:55:02,400 between ufos their study 1401 00:55:05,270 --> 00:55:04,160 their traits 1402 00:55:07,829 --> 00:55:05,280 and 1403 00:55:09,349 --> 00:55:07,839 you know the history the history of it 1404 00:55:11,109 --> 00:55:09,359 after blue book 1405 00:55:13,270 --> 00:55:11,119 got started 1406 00:55:14,309 --> 00:55:13,280 you know this established a whole 1407 00:55:15,589 --> 00:55:14,319 different 1408 00:55:18,710 --> 00:55:15,599 time 1409 00:55:22,309 --> 00:55:18,720 for the united states and how ufos were 1410 00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:22,319 viewed in popular culture in the media 1411 00:55:27,030 --> 00:55:24,720 and it's great that people have the 1412 00:55:29,990 --> 00:55:27,040 capacity to go back as 1413 00:55:32,390 --> 00:55:30,000 historical researchers 1414 00:55:33,589 --> 00:55:32,400 and they they continue to bring things 1415 00:55:35,510 --> 00:55:33,599 to light 1416 00:55:38,309 --> 00:55:35,520 that really just 1417 00:55:40,950 --> 00:55:38,319 haven't been i for example i didn't know 1418 00:55:42,069 --> 00:55:40,960 that uh heinek never said swamp gas for 1419 00:55:44,950 --> 00:55:42,079 example 1420 00:55:46,789 --> 00:55:44,960 i didn't know that the flatwood monster 1421 00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:46,799 case uh 1422 00:55:50,470 --> 00:55:48,400 people didn't get as sick as they 1423 00:55:52,710 --> 00:55:50,480 claimed there's a lot 1424 00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:52,720 that um charles knows that the average 1425 00:55:56,470 --> 00:55:54,480 person doesn't know and i'm really glad 1426 00:55:58,470 --> 00:55:56,480 that he worked with me it was a 1427 00:55:59,430 --> 00:55:58,480 real trial and error 1428 00:56:00,710 --> 00:55:59,440 time 1429 00:56:04,150 --> 00:56:00,720 connecting 1430 00:56:05,670 --> 00:56:04,160 i was up in utah's uinta basin 1431 00:56:08,309 --> 00:56:05,680 doing some research at 1432 00:56:10,309 --> 00:56:08,319 spacewolfresearch.com 1433 00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:10,319 and 1434 00:56:17,270 --> 00:56:12,240 the mishaps with 1435 00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:17,280 technology were beyond my control and uh 1436 00:56:22,789 --> 00:56:19,920 poor charles even today had 1437 00:56:24,549 --> 00:56:22,799 a flat tire on his way to do this 1438 00:56:27,510 --> 00:56:24,559 podcast interview and 1439 00:56:30,069 --> 00:56:27,520 he had to rent a city bike to get to the 1440 00:56:32,309 --> 00:56:30,079 interview on time anyway long story 1441 00:56:34,789 --> 00:56:32,319 short the entire time along the way we 1442 00:56:37,349 --> 00:56:34,799 kept communication lines open he did 1443 00:56:39,190 --> 00:56:37,359 everything he could to make this happen 1444 00:56:41,190 --> 00:56:39,200 and i think you guys should make it 1445 00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:41,200 happen that you get this book 1446 00:56:47,670 --> 00:56:44,799 of his on your shelves read it enjoy it 1447 00:56:50,069 --> 00:56:47,680 and continue to support his research 1448 00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:50,079 until next time keep your eyes to the 1449 00:57:06,360 --> 00:56:52,720 skies feet on the ground but don't 1450 00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:10,230 [Music] 1451 00:57:25,109 --> 00:57:11,930 come blast